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MAP vs MAF


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#1 david kriedeman

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Posted 09 July 2006 - 11:14 AM

MANIFOLD ABSOLUTE PRESSURE SENSOR (MAP)
MASS AIR FLOW SENSOR (MAF)
Both of these sensors are in MOST cases what we refer to in the trade as main inputs.
These sensors have more than 1 job.
They are used to tell the ECU IMPORTANT INFORMATION that it requires to be able to process into tune changes,relivant to the values the sensor inputs to the ECU.
Both MAP & MAF SENSORS have more than just an influence to the FUEL strategy employed by the ECU.
They both also play the no.1 most important input in relation to the IGNITION TIMING CURVE.
Also in some cases MAP SENSORS are also BAP SENSORS (BAROMETRIC ABSOLUTE PRESSURE SENSORS)
BAP SENSORS measure BOROMETRIC PRESSURE which is relative to ALTITUDE.
In some cases EG: R33GTSt SKYLINES with standard engine management the MAF is used also for the ECU to control switch on point for OVERBOOST FUEL CUT.
This is why when trying to get more than 9psi out of the RB25DET in an R33GTSt you cant without employing some type of FUEL CUT DEFENDER or AFTERMARKET ECU.
BAROMETRIC PRESSURE in RELATION to ALTITUDE,
Your maximum BAROMETRIC PRESSURE is found at SEA LEVEL.
The higher in ALTITUDE you go the lower the BARO. PRESS. is.
AIR is NOT ONLY DENSER WHEN COLD, but is also DENSER relative to PRESSURE. EG: BOOST.In saying this the higher in altitude you go the colder the air is, TRUE, however the OXYGEN QUANTITY is not as abundant as at SEA LEVEL.
Hence for HIGH ALTITUDE MOUNTAIN CLIMBERS require breathing aparatus supplying them with OXYGEN as the higher you go the LESS OXYGEN CONTENT in the ATMOSPHERE.
The BAP SENSOR takes a sample of BARO.PRESS. to caculate air density in relation to the ambiant pressure of your vehicles location,whether your cruising at sea level or cruising around up the TABLELANDS.
Some factory ECU's employ the MAP SENSOR/BAP SENSOR in the following manner.
Every time the ignition is turned on the pressure applied by the BARO.PRESS. to the diaphram in the MAP SENSOR is read by the ECU for it to calculate air OXYGEN DENSITY.
ALL AUTRONIC ECU's SMC,SM2,SM4 & all AUTRONIC PLUG & PLAY ECU's use the INTERNAL MAP SENSOR to do this BARRO.PRESS. sampling.
This time frame is almost instant. ( we are talking NANOSECONDS here.)
The time it takes you to turn your ignition key from the off position to an imediate engine cranking position the AUTRONIC has already taken its measurement and started to apply this value to all of it's CALIBRATION MAPS.
The BAP input is only applied at each ignition restart cycle.
Without getting to deep in this strategy, the BAP INPUT is only a MINOR TRIMMING INPUT in this type of senario.The ECU looks at its other main inputs to calculate true tune values. EG: TPS, ECT,ACT,MAP,MAF,etc,etc.
However the new AUTRONIC SM4 has the provisions in it's hardware and software to use BAP as a PERMANANT INPUT, influencing the engines state of tune at all times.
The SM4 can be CONFIGURED to be wired up using a BOSCH external MAP SENSOR & then using it's INTERNAL MAP SENSOR as a PERMANANT BAP SENSOR.
It's as simple as telling the ECU in it's set up program whether you wish to use BARO-TPS or BARO-MAP as you MAJOR TUNING INPUTS.
POINTS OF INTEREST REGARDING MAF & MAP SENSORS:
ALL MAF SENSORS DO HAVE A LEVEL OF RESTRICTION TO FLOW.
ANY THING in the inlet tract to the inlet valve IS a RESTRICTION to FLOW.
A couple of ways to get around or to minimise the amount of flow restriction are:
MOST MAF SENSORS have a mesh type guaze (screen) at the inlet side and normally on the engine side of them.
CAREFULLY REMOVE these mesh screens, some cases like early GEN3 ENGINED COMMODORES this screen is ALUMINIUM.
WHEN you remove your screens a simple quick reality check for you to try,COMPRESS,SQUASH, the screen down as flat as you can by hand.
Put the screen back up to the opening in your MAF,this will give you a basic idea of just how much CROSS SECTIONAL AREA you are HINDERING your incoming air flow by.
Remember those of you with 2 screens use both to get a more accurate flow restriction value.
POINT of interest GEN3 owners with early MAF's these guys have roughly a 3rd of there cross sectional flow path restricted by the 2 alloy mesh screens.
NEXT STEP, this one is IMPORTANT MAF OWNERS the screens you have just REMOVED CAREFULLY and i mean CAREFULLY, THROW the F#*KING THINGS IN THE BIN.
MAF's are very prone to CONTAMINATES.
MAF's use either HOTWIRE SENSING or THERMISTORS to calculated : AIR DENSITY,AIR TEMP and AIR QUANTITY being injested.
Whether your MAF uses HOTWIRE or THERMISTORS they both work the same way.
A REFERENCE VOLTAGE is applied to the HOTWIRE or THERMISTOR this voltage is NORMALLY 5V.
The SIGNAL RETURN WIRE to the ECU has a different value than the input(REF.VOLT.) that is applied, dependant on air flow.
EG: your ECU applies 5v to the sensor, your the HOTWIRE or THERMISTOR heats up,this heat is a resistance to voltage flow (amps)
So with 5v applied the sensor wire or probe heats up the return voltage drops,the amps climb.
The resistance causes the voltage to go down so your ECU may for example only see 2.5 volts on its signal return input.
The ECU goes to it's program table,looks for a reference to the input voltage it is getting then takes the appropriate strategy in relation to the fuel and timing table as required.
REMEMBER I AM SIMPLIFYING THESE PROCESSES AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE TO ENABLE THOSE OF YOU WHO DONT KNOW THIS STUFF UNDERSTAND IT. IT IS ALOT MORE COMPLEX THAN MY EXAMPLES ARE.
CONTAMINATES eg: DIRT that gets through your air filter, OIL from those of you running pre oiled type air filters(K&N,BLITZ etc) and ENGINE OIL that is brought back to the inlet piping via the CRANK CASE ROCKER COVER BREATHER HOSES which is forced back towards the MAF on DECELERATION caused by compressor surge.
EVER PULLED OFF YOUR AIR FILTER TO TURBO HOSE AND FOUND OIL IN THER, this is how.
These CONTAMINATES get deposited onto your HOTWIRE or THERMISTORS, which inturn INSULATES them.
When the 5v ref. is applied to the sensor the sensor gets hot causing VD( VOLTAGE DROP) on the signal return wire.
NORMALLY as your engine revs climb and the amount of air injested increases passing the HOTWIRE or THERMISTOR causing it to cool down therefor making the SIGNAL RETURN VOLTAGE get higher.
5V REF. APPLIED,SENSOR heats up,voltage drops.
ENGINE REVS INCREASE, AIR VOLUME INCREASES cooling sensor,voltage climbs.
EG: 5V APPLIED at idle you may have 1.5v on the SIG.RETURN WIRE.
5V APPLIED at 6000 rpm you may have 4.7v.
THE HIGHER THE ENGINE REVS,THE HIGHER THE RETURN VOLTAGE WILL BE.
When the sensor is contaminated it inhibits the ability for the incoming air charge to pull heat away from the sensor.
THE SENSOR IS INSULATED FROM THE AIR CHARGE,therefore staying hot,therefore the SIG.RETURN voltage will be lower than it should be.
THIS inturn causes the engine to run lean and may cause DETONATION as the ref volt. will be telling the ECU to run a perticular timing strategy that in most cases is to ADVANCED.
::::NB. WELL WRX OWNERS:::: THIS PROBLEM is as COMMON ON THESE CARS AS THE CARS THEMSELVES.
I recommend cleaning these sensors every 5000-10000 KM'S.
USE PRINTEDCIRCUIT BOARD CLEANER(avail. DICK SMITH etc)
DO NOT, TOUCH THE HOTWIRE OR THERMISTOR PHYSICALLY.
YOU WILL DAMAGE IT.
YOU CAN USE CARBY CLEANER but PCB CLEANER works better.
HOTWIRE TYPE SENSORS WEAR EARLIER THAN THERMISTOR TYPE SENSORS. VL COMMODORES prone to this problem.
MAP SENSORS.
IN MY OPINION ARE THE ULTIMATE IN LOAD SENSING.
They are "ALMOST" CONTAMINATE FREE.
IF CONTAMINATED THEY DONT OFTEN SUFFER ANY ILL EFFECTS.
THESE SENSORS USE DIAELECTRIC MEMBRANE or DIAPHRAM.
ENGINE VACUUM or BOOST ACTS apon a PIEZIO TYPE CRYSTAL, WHICH IN ITS OPERATION is alot more complex to explain and understand than the MAF SENSOR.
THOSE of you who wish to know can e-mail me on SUPERCHARGED8@aapt.net.au
In a nut shell MOST COMMON CONTAMINATES WILL NOT HAMPER THEIR PERFORMANCE.
AS FOR DAMAGE "ENGINE BACKFIRES" can damage them.
AND a hefty blow with a hammer WILL DAMAGE THEM.
APART from these examples they are pretty much indistructable in a normal operating situation.
IMPORTANT things to mention regarding MAP SENSORS.
REGARDING BIG DURATION,TIGHT LOBE SEPERATION CAMSHAFTS, which gives your engine lower engine vacuum values at idle etc,also on valve overlap you will suffer from a phenonimum called "VALVE REVERSION"
THESE issues will effect your engine tune, however with a decent ENGINE MANAGEMENT SYSTEM you will be able to tune and stablise the engine idle etc, also having good drivability.
CAIRNS PEOPLE have a listen to the idle on ROD'S BLACK B#$@CH, and TROY"s WHITE AU UTE "FRYDAY"
BOTH of these cars are running my engines, both are running what i regard as HEALTHY BUMP STICKS.(CAMSHAFTS)
Both have overlap and reversion issues.
BOTH DRIVE AND RUN SWEET DUE TO GOOD ENGINE MANAGEMENT AND GOOD TUNING.
THINGS NOT TO DO REGARDING THE PLUMBING OF THE VACUUM HOSE FROM THE ENGINE TO THE MAP SENSOR.
"""""""DO NOT PLUMB ANYTHING INTO or IN WITH THE MAP SENSOR HOSE.
ALWAYS HAVE THIS HOSE ON ITS OWN.
HAVING PLUMBED IN WITH FUEL PRESSURE REGULATORS or BLOW OFF VALVES etc WILL GIVE ISSUES.
WHEN the fuel pressure reg. is receiving pulses under the diaphram from the fuel pulses generated by the injectors pulsing on and off & when you have vacuum applied at idle then it goes when throttle is opened this will give pulses to the MAP SENSOR, NORMALLY not bad enough to cause serious engine tune issuse, but can make chasing that nice LIGHT LOAD TUNING and IDLE QUALITY tuning an issue.
BLOW OFF VALVES WILL GIVE SIMILAR PROBLEMS ESPECIALLY IF THE ARE SET TO SOFT, that they open fully with little boost.
The opening & closing,between vac & boost send pulses up the MAP HOSE.
HUNTING during idle with MAP sensors is NORMALLY a VERY GOOD INDICATION THAT THE TUNING IS INCORRECT, SO RECHECK YOUR AIR FUEL RATIO & IGN.TIMING VALUES at that point of HUNTING.
EVEN IF YOUR ARE RUNNING A BIG CAMSHAFT, YOU WILL BE ABLE TO TUNE OUT THE HUNTING.
THOSE OF YOU THAT HAVE EXTRA COMPONENTS PLUMBED IN WITH YOUR MAP HOSE BECAUSE YOU DONT HAVE ENOUGH VACUUM POINTS TO RUN EVERYTHING WITH OUT MULTIPLE HOOK UPS, FIT A RESTRICTOR TO THE MAP ONLY HOSE, TRY 0.8 mm to start and watch your vacuum values on the laptop to see if they have stablised, then retune and so on.
IF you have MAP hose on fuel press. reg hose, once again fit a restrictor and also a FUEL PRESSURE PULSATION DAMPENER.
SKYLINE OWNERS your cars have these standard, looks similar to a pressure reg. but has no vacuum hose port on it.
NORMALLY found on return line on the drivers side of the engine bay near the fuel filter.
WELL I HAVE A SORE FINGER NOW SO I'M FINISHING THIS OFF.
HOPE THIS INFO WAS OF HELP OR INTEREST TO YOUSE.

Edited by david kriedeman, 09 July 2006 - 01:51 PM.


#2 david kriedeman

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Posted 10 July 2006 - 05:14 AM

Anyone who doesnt have a FUEL PRESSURE PULSATION DAMPENER on there vehicle and wants to fit one,can obtain one quite CHEAPLY and easily from your local wreckers.
Ask if they have any V6 COMMODORES in their yard.
If so ask for the fuel press.pulsation dampener.
Dont be surprised if you get a STUNNED or BLANK look from the wrecker,you may have to explain what it is.
On the V6 COMMO. engine the pulsation dampener is located on the fuel return line drivers side of engine bay,firewall end of engine.
REMEMBER it looks like a FUEL PRESS. REGULATOR but has no vacuum port on the top.
V8 COMMODORES have this also, but on the passengers side.
HOW DO YOU KNOW IF YOU NEED A PULSATION DAMPENER.
Carry out a fuel pressure check.
With the engine idling check the needle on the fuel pressure guage.
If you find the NEEDLE BOUNCING or PULSATING, (should just read a constant value) you need a dampener.
Most car manufacturers fit these devices from factory,as they know this phenonimum creates issues.
In saying this i quite often see vehicles in my workshop with these devices BY-PASSED or removed completely.
IF YOU FIND YOU HAVE TO FIT A DAMPENER:
The pulsation dampener goes on the fuel return hose.
It is fitted AFTER the FUEL PRESS. REGULATOR.
FUEL FLOW PATH, FUEL TANK,PICK UP FILTER(pick up sock),FUEL PUMP,FUEL FILTER,FUEL RAIL,FUEL PRESSURE REGULATOR,PULSATION DAMPENER,FUEL TANK.

#3 NJA82

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Posted 10 July 2006 - 11:45 AM

Just a quick thing to add Dave, this might not be the case with Holdens and other vehicles though,

With Nissan MAF sensors, especially the Z32 MAF sensor, it is strongly recommended that you DO NOT remove the mesh on either side, the way the hot wire is designed and located in the centre of the MAF body is relying on the mesh to provide an even flow of air accross the hotwire. Much like a tap in the kitchen sink, if you have mesh in the spout the water will come out nice and smooth an straight down, if you dont it will run out all ove the place. This is a basic example but it works similar. The mesh is also there for protecting the hotwire but its main function is for consistant air flow.

Many tests have been done with and without the mesh and it has been proven that unless you want to re-calculate the entire MAF curve in the power FC or similiar ECU then leave the mesh intact. If it is removed and you run the preset Z32 MAF selection curve in the Power FC the resolution will change and it will be way out of calibration.

The mesh might be a slight restriction to flow but keep in mind that an 80mm Z32 MAF sensor can flow about 300rwKW reliably in single MAF configuration. In GTR`s running 2x Z32 MAF sensors 500KW at all fours is very easily tuned.

Edited by S14 200SX, 10 July 2006 - 11:51 AM.


#4 david kriedeman

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Posted 12 July 2006 - 05:45 AM

Point taken,the mesh isnt a massive restriction to flow. How ever,every bit counts.
This modification i have noted was more aimed at the do it yourself lightly tuned type cars.
Your comment regarding the mesh and it's purpose in life is 100% CORRECT.
The PROCESS you were refering to is known as DIFFUSION.
In ALL cases where i have myself personally done this mod, i have not had any of these vehicle suffer from any ILL health tune issues.
The DIFFUSION PROCESS is MAINLY a player in the tune role at IDLE and SMALL OPEN THROTTLE or LIGHT THROTTLE cruise modes.
Once the incoming air speed picks up,especially under boost this DIFFUSION is no longer an issue due to sheer AIR VOLUME be INJESTED.
If you look into most MAF SENSORS you will notice that MOST if not ALL these type sensors have some form of aerodynamic wedge or splitter plate or air guidance holes, slots etc.
The purpose of these are to make sure that appropriate air flow does pass the sensor.
Another point that i forgot to mention is that on MAF engines any air (VACUUM) leak past the MAF SENSOR itself is known as unsenced air.
The ECU doesnt know it exists.
How can it COMPENSATE for this UNSENCED AIR.
It cant, the OXYGEN SENSOR will pick it up and can have marginal influence on this problem, but only when ECU is in CLOSED LOOP.
Even when in CLOSED LOOP its trimming for the unsenced air NORMALLY doesnt effect the state of tune enough to rectify the problem.
MAP sensed engines do offer a degree somewhat higher than MAF engines of rectification of an air leak(vacuum).
When you have a vacuum leak the engines MANIFOLD PRESSURE drops.
The ECU knows about it immediately via the MAP.
The ECU doesnt know it has a vacuum leak,it sees the drop in engine vacuum and simply thinks that the engine is under more load.
To compensate for this (MORE LOAD) VACUUM LEAK it fattens the fuel curve.
In the senario of a fairly small vacuum leak where you may have only lost say 2-4"HG most people wouldnt even know there is an issue with their vehicle.
HOWEVER A LARGE VACUUM LEAK is NOT SOMETHING ANY TYPE OF MAP or MAF SENSED ENGINE CAN COMPENSATE FOR.
MAF is also refered to as MAS (MASS AIR SENSOR)
These are known also as "SPEED DENSITY" SENSING.
As far as ease of tune, i feel both MAP & MAF are easy to tune.
It all comes back to the ECU and the TUNERS ability.
POINT OF INTEREST:
The new AUTRONIC SM4 has the ability to be configured to either MAP or MAF style load sensing.
Giving the flexability for the tuner to tune the engine either way, dependant on how it is wired up.
The MAF set up is compatable to any type of sensor,it has calibration settings for initial set up,allowing for excelent tuning resolution.
APEXi POWER FC is a very good ECU for tuning of MAF sensors where applicable.
The input information that you initially put in under INTAKE TYPE, each type whether it be STANDARD,SPORTS,SUPER SUCKER,Z32 etc, gives the FC the starting point for it's tune resolution strategy.
Then selecting the air flow screen and being able to change the % VALUE for each of the MAFS voltage scales.
This is very handy for quick tune trimming to the overall fuel curve at its corresponding load point.

#5 SiKnEsS

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Posted 12 July 2006 - 06:03 PM

woww that was a good read,, and very usefull,, thanks guys
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#6 mr-squiggle

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Posted 12 July 2006 - 09:26 PM

that was a read.. excellent information
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